What is correct?

Discussion in 'Horse Training' started by CarlisleChipper, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. CarlisleChipper

    CarlisleChipper Senior Member+

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    Yes, you're right. And I have had a 2 star eventer get on him before. What I meant more was the idea of having someone else make the horse for me. What you described is something that I would do and have done before. :D
    One thing I don't have access to is school masters. Even at my barn I ride at, no upper level school masters. Just lower level kick rides.
     
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  2. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    (trainer) "I don't want to be dependent on them for knowledge"

    The training scale I posted is for dressage. It doesn't work for other riding sports. Not as applied. There are some extremely vague and generalized interpretations of the training scale that people strain to apply to other riding sports, but again, the training scale is applied in a unique way in dressage - the contact and aids and position are different.

    Your attitude("I don't want to be dependent on a trainer for knowledge") will hold you back in dressage, and that does sound like what you want to do.

    Dressage is always a partnership between the student, the horse, and the instructor. Lessons are something people get ongoing. Lessons don't stop. It is a three way partnership and each has a role in making it work out.

    Maybe some clarification. In dressage, we don't usually make a distinction between an 'instructor' and a 'trainer.' The best instructors have a lot of experience training horses and preferably, are currently training horses AND teaching students. The training makes the instruction better, and the instruction makes the training better. So the distinction between trainer and instructor is blurred in dressage.

    And clearly, some people don't like to teach(horses learn easier than humans, they would say, which is true in some ways), and either don't teach or do so grudgingly. But most good dressage instructors are also training horses.

    You will need to be instructable and you will, in fact, be relying on an instructor for a lot, and you will, in fact, get mixed up if you take lessons from multiple people or people from other disciplines, much more so in the beginning (now).

    Being instructable is a skill people develop through practice. It's not an inborn trait. You think it is, but it isn't. We all learned to be instructable.

    Being instructable is also a matter of getting to the best instructor you can get to. If someone is constantly telling you to do things that don't work, you will eventually get mad and quit.

    The reason online math classes work better than some math instructors in person is that they got good advice when they wrote the class, and they have practice and repetition, and they repeat the exercises and problems til you get them. In a classroom, a teacher has 30 or 35 students, and he can't wait for each student to get it. He has a set 'program' that he has to regurgitate every class period, and if you don't get it, you have to go in after class, get a tutor, or go back to the online program for practice.

    Today, MOST math classes make at least some use of online programs, precisely because they give the student the practice he doesn't get in the classroom. They have basically become a 'teacher speaks a unit of speech' during each class and you get the practice from the online software, instead of having truly interactive teaching.

    In my physics class, my teacher would sit down with me, and we'd go over it til I got it. However long that took. That is truly interactive teaching. If I didn't get it he redesigned the problem so that it was less confusing, and he explained it and broke it down into pieces, that is 'really teaching' or true 'interactive teaching.'

    ALL dressage instruction is true interactive teaching.

     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  3. Rhythm 'n Blues

    Rhythm 'n Blues Senior Member

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    Does your coach not have a horse further along you could ride occasionally?? It is very very hard to learn something & teach the horse at the same time. Yes, you can muttle through, but it’s never the same quality & understanding.

    One other quick thing. Each instructor/coach will have a slightly different way of doing things. Flip flopping between trainers usually means changing “plans” or at least slight variations on the path. It can confuse not only the rider/student but also the horse. Honestly, many times it’s best to stick with 1 instructor/coach and train of thought/approach. then do clinics with others your instructor/coach likes or sees eye to eye with.
     
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  4. CarlisleChipper

    CarlisleChipper Senior Member+

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    No. The barn I ride at is mostly based on utilizing boarders own horses. I don't board there I trailer in. The lesson horses they do have are very elementary.

    SLC what I mean when I say I don't want to be dependent on them for knowledge is that it takes some personal self-discipline and drive to seek out more than what a trainer is going to do for you. Never in my almost 20 years has an instructor told me how to perform a certain movement in dressage (training level and below) it always was just to ride the test. Oh and make sure to bend in the corners! But not why. I want the nitty gritty. I want to know the technical requirements and expectations. That is something I haven't ever gotten out of a trainer. And of course that isn't anyone's fault. We did what we could when I was young and we didn't know any better. This is why I still have a desire to know, what exactly does it mean to be correct? It is a gap in my education. I was taught to ride. But now I want refinement and intention, it's what I've always wanted. It's just now at 27 years old do I have the means to truly go forward and have the means to get there.

    Also, I feel you on using multiple trainers and it not really meshing. I took a lesson last week and I didn't feel like it went very well. First time riding with that particular instructor. So I won't be doing a lesson with them again. Pretty much I would feel like going with the 2 star eventer and sticking with them would benefit us most. I would totally be open to learning on school masters I just don't have them around. I feel like the part of Texas I'm in doesn't really have a lot of resources or upper level barns to seek out. Everyone rides western out here!
     
  5. Rhythm 'n Blues

    Rhythm 'n Blues Senior Member

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    If you haven’t had an instructor explain the nitty gritty, then keep looking. They should be talking about the whys, when’s along with the how’s. Much like the nuances I’ve mentioned in other posts today (like the barrel having to swing right to allow the left hind leg to come through) if one isn’t doing into that kind of detail, then keep looking till you find someone who does. They likely don’t advertise as they are busy enough off word of mouth. ;)
     
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  6. Rhythm 'n Blues

    Rhythm 'n Blues Senior Member

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    Quick addition: if there’s no advanced horses under the coach I’d be asking why. Doesn’t the coach have 1-2 personal horses that they may allow you a ride on from time to time? How good of a school can you REALLY run with a true focus on any disciple without the odd horse that’s not just a “kick & pull” ride???

    Heck even a horse who’s well schooled the 1st level would be advanced enough to teach you something. 2nd level even better! I can’t imagine a coach not having something at that level, even personally......I mean it’s possible, but I wouldn’t imagine it’d stay that way for very long.
     
  7. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    No. The barn I ride at is mostly based on utilizing boarders own horses. I don't board there I trailer in. The lesson horses they do have are very elementary.

    SLC what I mean when I say I don't want to be dependent on them for knowledge is that it takes some personal self-discipline and drive to seek out more than what a trainer is going to do for you. Never in my almost 20 years has an instructor told me how to perform a certain movement in dressage (training level and below) it always was just to ride the test.

    That's not good teaching....BUT....in the moment, there is not often time for a big explanation. It's just "HALF HALT NOW!" or "BEND NOW!" Things are just moving too quickly, no one could explain it all. You have to have faith in the instructor, do what she says, and then do one or more of the following:
    1. Ask questions at the end of the lesson or during a walk break
    2. Study from a good classical book after your lesson (there aren't really a whole lot of these)
    3. Accept that you will not understand a lot of things for a long while, and you have to just do what you're told. Yes. Really. Do what you're told, be quiet, stop asking questions, just do it. That is how it is a lot of the time. Some things the only way you learn them is by making your body do it over and over, and the reasoning behind it, you just learn like a slap in the face, all of a sudden, and you have to just wait until it hits you.
    Yeah, I know that doesn't appeal to much of today's youth or even to the baby boomers. I watched baby boomers struggle with that for 50 years, LOL. But that's the fact. Some things you just have to accept that it will take time for you to get it. You just have to repeat it with your body, until you understand it.

    You see, a lot of what you learn is very, very visceral - you learn it with your gut, and 'by the seat of your pants.'(you simply learn how it feels). You don't learn it with words. You learn it in your gut. How it's supposed to feel.

    That is not so very different from learning why we do this now, which is very often because of what comes next. And that is the huge, huge problem for too many people have with dressage. They want everything explained like it's all so simple. It just isn't.


    Oh and make sure to bend in the corners! But not why. I want the nitty gritty. I want to know the technical requirements and expectations.

    Yeah....but the thing is, much of the time, the answer is, "because we do things differently in dressage, and you won't entirely understand why until you have ridden a horse up the levels." Yeah. Really. Sometimes that's the answer.

    Why do we bend in the corners? Because we do, basically. Bending is a huge, huge part of dressage. Other riding sports, you don't bend a horse, or you sure don't do it the way we do it, and no, actually, they can do it their way, they're not going to burn in hades or have a dead horse if they do it that way. We do it because it's a huge part of dressage and it works with the rest of the system. There really is a system here. When you learn the lower levels you're only seeing a part of that system.

    Oh, people INVENT reasons all the time. Because anything else makes the horse lame. Because the old masters have some 50 page explanation. Because blah blah blah. In the end, we do it this way because of tradition and because it works with the rest of the system. If you don't know the whole system, it will be a long time before this whole thing smacks you in the face. Sometimes you just have to be patient and wait til it smacks you in the face, and do what the instructor says.


    That is something I haven't ever gotten out of a trainer. And of course that isn't anyone's fault. We did what we could when I was young and we didn't know any better. This is why I still have a desire to know, what exactly does it mean to be correct? It is a gap in my education. I was taught to ride. But now I want refinement and intention, it's what I've always wanted. It's just now at 27 years old do I have the means to truly go forward and have the means to get there.

    No trainer can just explain everything to you, no matter how good they are. It doesn't work that way. You have to take a lot on faith, just plain old do it, and wait for it to hit you. There is a reason why a lot of dressage people wear t-shirts that say shut up and ride. It's fine and dandy to yack about it here ad nauseum, when we're not riding, that's fine. But when you're on the horse and getting instruction, you can' stop and talk about it. You have to just do it in the moment.

    The Europeans have a lot of really punchy, brief, pithy sayings they teach students... most American instructors do not. They try to intellectualize and talk a lot in the lesson, and to be quite frank, it doesn't work. Things simply happen too fast.


    Also, I feel you on using multiple trainers and it not really meshing. I took a lesson last week and I didn't feel like it went very well. First time riding with that particular instructor. So I won't be doing a lesson with them again.

    Fine, but remember what the lady said in 'To Kill a Mockingbird': if we followed our feelings all the time we'd be like chasing cats. Sometimes you need to step outside your feelings about 'how well it went' and whether you felt like a star or not at the end of the lesson. Sometimes you learn a lot from lessons that aren't really big ego-strokers. And sometimes the best instructors are the ones you hate.

    Pretty much I would feel like going with the 2 star eventer and sticking with them would benefit us most. I would totally be open to learning on school masters I just don't have them around. I feel like the part of Texas I'm in doesn't really have a lot of resources or upper level barns to seek out. Everyone rides western out here!

    Dressage has had a ton of growth in Texas in the last 30 years or so. But some areas have yet to go to the dark side.
     
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  8. slc

    slc Senior Member

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  9. CarlisleChipper

    CarlisleChipper Senior Member+

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    Thank you SLC. I value what you have to offer in this discussion!
     
  10. CarlisleChipper

    CarlisleChipper Senior Member+

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    On the topic of being a good student of riding
     

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