Thoughts on Art 2 Ride

Discussion in 'Horse Training' started by funkybizniz, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. funkybizniz

    funkybizniz Full Member

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    But it doesn’t do any good to run to the extreme. Cranking a horses nose to its chest and hollowing the back is bad for the horse, but so is forcing a false LDR position. It’s not better because it’s non traditional.

    You can train with multiple trainers, but you shouldn’t pick and choose what you want to hear from multiple trainers. A good trainer should be able to work with you and establish the basics.
    And any trainer I would ever take advice from needs to be able to get a horse forward and on the bit. Faeber can’t.
     
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  2. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    4 words for you: Natalie zu Sayn Wittgenstein.

    You don't even know who she is.

    And there are many more like her. Yeah. There are. And they compete.

    Are they perfect every second? No. No one is. No matter what level they're at.

    If you're not finding the Grand Prix International trainers you need to take your horse and you from Intermediare II to Grand Prix, look at people like her. They are there. I worked with people like that all through the rollkur mess. Never pretzeled even one horse.

    No?

    We'll just agree to disagree, then.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  3. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    This team trains under Andreas Hausberger of the Spanish Riding School. Emphasis on relaxed natural routine.





    Another top international trainer, Uta Graf.



     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  4. Tim Tam

    Tim Tam Registered

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    That's not my point. My point is that the problems are still widespread and should be penalized but they aren't. And again another rider whose horses throw their legs out in front of them at the extended trot while the hind legs take mini steps. A classically trained horse will be extending the same amount on all four legs. Her curb rein is also VERY tight at times. Rollkur IMO was a much more inflated problem than it really was (but it got the backlash it deserved at the time). I see way more hollow backs and false collection than I ever have rollkur. Some of these riders have an excellent piaffe but then go right back into false collection. So it isn't that their horses can't perform or aren't conditioned for collection. It's the way people are choosing to ride them. It's no excuse not to kick up a fuss about a problem just because not everyone does it. "Don't talk about child abuse because not all parents are abusive. I had and know good parents so normalized abuse shouldn't be discussed." That is how many of you come off and why the world has created this stereotype about horse people. I'm not sure if that's the intention, but if it were any other kind of issue it would be considered ridiculous to do that.
     
  5. funkybizniz

    funkybizniz Full Member

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    It is true that there are components of the current dressage competitions that should not be rewarded- and I have been seeing them less and less. The most celebrated riders in the US right now, probably Dujardan and Hester and Laura Graves, are all talented riders who understand the basics and can ride well. There are critiques I can and will make of all of them, but this is part of riding. No one in the world is outside of making mistakes- not me, not you, not anyone on the forum, not the best rider on Earth. It's why we keep taking lessons.
    If we can critique 'modern dressage' for the parts we don't like, surely we can critique Will Faeber for the parts we don't like.

    Faeber's critiques of 'modern dressage' are not based entirely in reality. You can critique pieces of dressage competition that you don't like without throwing it all out, labelling it as an atrocity, and preaching an extreme which in the end does not produce a better horse. No one on this thread is saying that there are not problems with dressage- I just don't believe that Will Faeber is the solution to this at all.
     
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  6. funkybizniz

    funkybizniz Full Member

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    Seen on Facebook today: there was a post about Art2Ride discussing a photo where the rider was sitting behind the vertical.
    My critique of the photo was that the rider was too far behind the vertical, not utilizing her seat appropriately, her hands were too high for the position of the head, and her toes were pointed outwards, disengaging the leg. Someone pointed this out, but the rider responded by saying that you lean behind the vertical to "pull the belly upwards," and that leaning behind the vertical allows the movement to come through the body. Others said the position was okay because the horse was stretching downwards and was in front of the vertical.

    Putting a horse's head down and allowing it to travel on the forehand hinders the rider's equitation. Opening the pelvis and shoulders, or using a driving seat for a few strides to encourage forward movement in the horse is very much different than sitting behind the vertical and balancing on the mouth. I would much rather see a horse come behind the vertical for a stride while developing the contact than run around on the forehand with false contact for months.
     
  7. Ziast

    Ziast Senior Member

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  8. funkybizniz

    funkybizniz Full Member

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    @Ziast is this your horse? I don't want to step on any toes but I am less than impressed.
    I can assure you I have spent my days riding around on developing horses trying to get them on the bit, but this is not how I would have done it. All I see here is an aversive training method- he pulls on the mouth while it is up in the air with his hands near his hips, and then only releases when the nose is to the ground. This isn't teaching the horse to come into the bridle or work over the back, it's just using negative reinforcement to put the head where he wants it. The horse comes behind the bridle multiple times in the video and I don't see a horse I would consider round, or relaxed. It's a drastic 'improvement' for a six minute video.
    Faeber's legs and hips also don't follow the horse for the majority of the video. His leg is mostly inactive, and he's pretty heavy handed for someone who preaches against riding against the mouth.
    And can he please put on a helmet...
     
  9. Ziast

    Ziast Senior Member

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    Nooooooo, not my horse.

    Just a video I came across of Faber riding how you were describing. Leaning way too far back, hand riding, ineffective aids, not a happy horse.
     
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  10. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Ironically, the 'guru trainers' constantly violate the most basic, commonsense rules of equitation and then have astounding reasons for why that's ok.

    Once a friend came over to 'evangelize' me about one of the guru trainers. She showed me a video in which he was leaning back so far his head was practically on the horse's hind quarters.

    I commented on that and she said, get this, 'OH! He covered that in his lecture! Then what followed was sort of like that, blah blah blah Ginger cartoon of the dog not listening to his master, then I hear this: ' ....so, in summary, he said one EARNS THE RIGHT to do that!'

    And I thought of this...

    We had a rider who leaned back at one barn. I groomed her horse. She would get off the horse and he would 'break out' (reheat) and was obviously very uncomfortable. He had a pair of ashtray-sized depressions on either side of his back where the saddle went, where her seat bones were grinding into his back. The other gal said, 'Oh, you have to put hot towels on his back after she rides him and keep him moving.'

    I was like, 'you are #&$)^%$ me!'

    Noooo, she says, hot towels, and keep him moving for 45 min or he will cramp up.

    This was a really stocky, sturdy horse with a very good back, and this was a very light weight rider!

    No, actually, a rider does not "earn the right" to do that!

    Yes, occasionally Gigantic Tank Child blows through your hands, your seat and everything else, and you take your shoulders back for a moment, as part of a big old Come-To-Jesus half halt, but taking the body back like that, just cannot be a constant thing!

    How the Young Ben felt to half halt(until I got myself a 'real' trainer):



     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019

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