Thoughts on Art 2 Ride

Discussion in 'Horse Training' started by funkybizniz, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. GotaDunQH

    GotaDunQH Senior Member

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    And wasn't it with someone named Walter something?
     
  2. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Walter Zettl. He moved from Germany to Canada, around, 1986, I think, he was a horse dealer. Mostly sold horses for junior riders. He later became an internet 'sensation' with Americans. He passed away last year.
     
  3. funkybizniz

    funkybizniz Full Member

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    The people who ride A2R aren’t people who competed in higher level dressage and then had an epiphany. Most of them are uneducated riders who a DIY. They don’t realize that their horse can build muscle and become more fit by being properly ridden in a traditional way.
    Some competitive dressage is bad and those riders should not be rewarded. That doesn’t mean we should run to the extreme. Faeber cries that it takes years to develop a horse, which is true but it doesn’t take years to bring a horse to working trot.

    And you know why they never show the horses doing advanced movements? Because they don’t have the concept or ability to. The contact is false and they haven’t learned to carry the weight upward. There are a couple videos of a horse piaffing, but the horse wasn’t beautifully into the contact and who knows how they ride when they aren’t videoing. The fan base is unlikely to know whether a piaffe is correct anyways b
     
  4. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Alright, keep in mind, the way he stretches is very flawed. It's not correct. It violates every basic principle of dressage and raises welfare concerns. So it cannot assist anyone in moving up the levels. It's an incorrect basis for other training. A house with a bad foundation collapses, same with dressage.

    He wants to market this stretching thing to all riders in all disciplines, so that's partly why you see so much of it. But it's also because there isn't anything else.

    Modern dressage is all messed up? That's propaganda spread by bad trainers who want to take advantage of the situation and offer themselves as the better alternative, when they have nothing of value to offer and know nothing except slogans. Typical cult and salesmanship tactics.

    There are still competitive dressage trainers who are fantastic. Absolutely correct and classical. They work hard and they teach well and they produce correct riders and horses. And they compete, and they in turn have correct trainers they learned from. And their number one concern is the horse's welfare.

    It's just not true that they are 'all bad.' That's cult nonsense.

    All through the 'rollkur' garbage I was working with someone who would absolutely never do such a thing to a horse, and won internationally and competing at Grand Prix.

    Extreme positioning doesn't work in dressage, whether that's running around for years with the horse's nose in the dirt always or chin glued to his chest always. These things don't work, they never have worked, and they never will work. Every few years some new genius comes along who claims one or the other works, but they are wrong.


    And now things are very different, even at the very top of the sport.

    And no, actually, there is nothing wrong with sticking to or believing one trainer, if he or she is good and can do more than just talk the talk! They don't all need to be 'taken with a grain of salt,' lol.

    Most trainers in the US in dressage have barely competed at training level, they've had very little experience going up the levels, little to no lessons or mentorship, they have only ridden schoolmasters at upper levels. They've only watched clinics and picked up tricks rather than having any real understanding. They don't fully understand basic concepts. They're fine for teaching you to sit up straight and find the right diagonal, but they don't completely get contact, position, what aids to use, how to fix things, or anything else of dressage. And that's all most people want! And that's fine! That's 'American Dressage Lite!' Comes in cans!

    But the time comes for some people when they are ready to move up and work a little harder...and if a person gets to that point, he will have already started to understand who's a good trainer and who's full of it.

     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  5. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Obviously my math stinks. Faerber showed the last time 24 years ago, his training with Oliveira was about 43 years ago(he does not specify which years he traveled to Oliveira's riding school, just says he went 5 times).

     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  6. Rhythm 'n Blues

    Rhythm 'n Blues Senior Member

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    To the bold above:
    Be very very careful with that statement. To jump around will only confuse the heck out of the horse and the rider. Straight up - if you change, give yourself, the coach/trainer & the horse a chance to get there!

    As to A2R: spent 15mins on his website - already found lies in what he said just from video to video in regards to the horses history or the way he was ridden previously. So nope - sorry, that's enough for me. Besides I can't handle his "forever stretchy" BS. So painful & it's not correct from a dressage standpoint. Others have echoed my sentiments very well.
     
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  7. Garfield70

    Garfield70 Senior Member

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    If you just want to learn to ride a good long and low stretch, there are far better sources. And no, not even "early in the process" you urge the horse to hold that position over a long time.
     
  8. Garfield70

    Garfield70 Senior Member

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    No, there are trainers who teach a solid path from basics to advanced stuff where you will not be wrong with anything they have to say. Sure, you don't need to strive to become a 100% copy of your instructor, but with a good instructor, you will agree with the vast majority of their instructions.
     
  9. Rhythm 'n Blues

    Rhythm 'n Blues Senior Member

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    I can attest to this. There isn't a single horse, in a single stage of training that I have worked with that I have EVER wanted the horse to be that low, that long or with reins flapping in the breeze.........not all 3 of those things together, not 2 of them, heck, not even 1 of them.
     
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  10. Tim Tam

    Tim Tam Registered

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    We can cherry pick the exceptions to all rules. But the reality is that the FEI is not penalizing incorrect dressage. The competitive dressage industry, on average, has a lot of issues. The fact that SOME people aren't doing it doesn't erase the fact it is a serious issue. I watch FEI streams regularly and see plenty of horses hollow in the back and on the forehand. Not many of them have their hind legs coming through underneath them enough yet their fronts are hanging up in the air. Sure it's improved from what it was 5 years ago, but that doesn't mean the more deep-rooted flaws have disappeared.

    And I don't believe it's ever a good idea to latch yourself onto one dogma. It's even important to expose yourself to bad things or bad training. You can learn things from people doing them wrong. It also helps with perspective. I watch many trainers I absolutely hate. I think many trainers truly believe what they're saying is true, and you have to question why do they believe it is true? They're not immune to the locked up way of thinking that runs rampant in this industry. In fact, they profit off of it.
     

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