Perspectives and Horses Behavior | Take This Thread With A Salt Block

Discussion in 'Horse Chat' started by Pluffix, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. Pluffix

    Pluffix Full Member

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    I'm making a new thread on this subject because it was starting to be discussed on another thread ( This Thread Here Which Honestly Just Needs to Rot ) and was becoming off topic. A topic which was already solved anyway and I honestly don't know why I re-opened it. (insert foot in mouth here.)

    As a disclaimer. This is not in mind to start drama. Drama will be inevitable if people have different opinions and both sides want to change the other's mind. When I say "take this with a grain of salt and keep an open mind' what I mean is "It's ok to have a different opinion, but other people are allowed different opinions as well."
    In short, civil discussion is possible without everyone agreeing to the same thing.

    It's a matter of perspective. You can have many people in the same room and no one with have the exact same perspective of that room. Much like dealing with any animal. It's why there are so many different opinions on raising children, dogs, cats, snakes etc.

    Anyway....

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    ...Rick's rule of thumb seems to have been "if something bad happens, there was something that you could have prevented and therefore it is your fault." He doesn't say that, but with his anti-helmet agenda, that's what it comes off as. What he does say is that if you can't control your horse, you don't belong on your horse.

    And to some extent, I do agree with him. But I also disagree with him.

    The whole helmet thing has two sides of the argument which are both logical if you take a step back and look at it.

    On one side:
    The helmet is becoming fashionable. An accessory. Popular. To some, this raises red flags because on the absolute base level you can see that companies are trying to get money off of insecurities. Especially when this is a female-dominated hobby. So there is a lot of pink helmets. Women tend to love pink. (That's not exactly true. Pink is so likable because it's a warm, bright color, but men tend to "hate it" because they are forced to/conditioned to. "Pink is gay.") And the market plays on this. Stupid people slap helmets on their kids and then feel like they can turn their backs because for some reason there is this stigma that as long as someone has a helmet on, they are 100% safe, and they did their part as parents. And again, people who lack sense will take a helmet, slap it on, and stop paying attention to queues and things. As someone who worked hospital security, I can also attest that there are still people who walk into the hospital with rather severe head injuries even if they wore a helmet. Could it have been worse? Probably. But the helmet doesn't 100% protect you. It can also increase the chance of your neck snapping due to the added weight on your head. It's quite the distance from the horse to the ground as well and really any height could kill you. So what's the point? I mean if you are scared of the random chances of something, anything, happening that could possibly kill you, therefore you must react to these risks by protecting yourself at all costs, you might as well put on a full body bubble wrap as well. I'd say stay indoors and never leave the house, but that also creates risk. You can't 100% protect yourself from risks so the helmet, in this light, looks like just something for companies to take advantage of and play with peoples fears.

    Nurses wear gloves to protect themselves against bloodborne pathogens which can kill them from the inside out. Does that mean that the glove industry is making money off people's fears? Well, no. Because bloodborne pathogens are something that we cannot see. Therefore we cannot actually prevent that risk by being observant/smart. Plus they do not have a choice but to take that risk.Same thing with any job with PPE. Factory work included. There are risks that are necessary that people take, and the PPE is a barrier against that.


    But with horses? This is a good place to segway into the other side.

    On the other side:
    Take what I said before because it can be applied to both sides. With horses, who are argued to be both notoriously predictable (as long as you KNOW your horse) and unpredictable. I say they are predictable, but not on a human level. Horses have faster reflex responses than we do. It takes us a second, and a horse much less to react. So by the time we have even acknowledged a threat/potential threat, the horse is already in the process of reacting. So while most things can be avoided by paying attention, yes, there are still things that are unpredictable to us that can potentially happen. So by getting the right PPE, you can avoid that. Most people who dress in the appropriate protective gear are actually more attuned and cautious. People who do not take safety precautions are usually much less because they are comfortable. And when you get comfortable, you stop paying attention. And mistakes tend to happen.

    A helmet for horse riding is appropriate for that and built specifically by design for falls to protect your brain by spreading impact away from the contact site, which can prevent bouncing and whiplash as well.


    For Rick, though. it's easier to point out flaws when you look at situations on a frame-by-frame event. He doesn't use this to point out mistakes per say, he uses it to point out what to look for. What they could have done to prevent it. Learning from someone else's mistakes so you do not make your own.

    He takes a trollish and sarcastic approach as it's mostly women in the field supposedly, so there are more women making mistakes than men are by default. And so when people start boo-hooing about something, apparently Rick finds it funny and turns it into something for him to laugh at.

    As for his fans, however. It's easy.
    It's the bandwagon effect. Or pack animal effect. Or mob effect. Whatever you want to call it. If you look up to someone, you tend to emulate how they feel. Or if you are in a group, and they start feeling negatively about something, you might feel more inclined to feel this way as well. It's hardwired into us. I believe it's also called "contagious emotion." So more often than not, fans will emulate Rick's trollish behavior in a manner that he probably did or did not intend. He's a guy who likes horses who finds it funny to upset people because they cannot really upset him. He finds it funny that words are taken personally so he abuses that because it's ridiculous that people allow words to hurt them. At least, that's how I look at it.

    View points can also be shared by expressing logic and other things that could honestly be believable. So that's why some people disagree with him very abruptly. Because they have something that works for them, therefore it is the only way. He does the same thing.

    I do not understand it. Maybe it's because I'm wired differently and lack "pack sense," due to the fact I am severely anti-social, but I see the logic of all sides, and I don't honestly think one side is absolutely wrong and the other absolutely right.
    "Yea, that makes sense and I see it working for him. But this also makes sense to me, and I see it working for you."
    That kind of thing.

    I'm sorry if I cannot join the "anti-Rick Gore" agenda, but I honestly see good points being made. And I do take what he says with a grain of salt, because he is a heavily sarcastic person and if you aren't paying attention you can take what he says literally and you'd think he hated his horses because he calls them "stupid." But in many videos he has to stop and explain that he doesn't actually believe they are stupid, and he just says that to get a rise out of people. Same with the pink, helmets, and women stuff he does.

    Now with the bits.... I don't even know.

    I was under the impression that bits didn't hurt a horse (unless you yank them) because it fit in a place after the teeth. It's a method of head control, but I didn't know it was a painful one.

    Anyways, I would like to know more about horses and how they think/behave. I've already learned quite a bit, but for sake of making this thread as short as I could possibly, I am not going to sit here and list out everything I already know. (I'd say "the basics" but I don't have enough experience to confidently say that I know that that the basics are all the basics I know. lol)

    So slap in some videos or start a discussion. I'm hoping this stays civil, but I'll bet a mod will be on this like a momma horse to a nippy foal if things get out of hand. I apologize in advance if this becomes the case. My focus is entirely on horse behavior at the moment, but the majority of what I know came from Rick's videos. So that is why he is part of the topic.
     
  2. ginster

    ginster Senior Member

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    Everyone riding horses should wear a helmet. It should not be a point of discussion whether or not you're safer with one.
    That said-every mentally able adult can make their own decision when it comes wearing them.
    I rode without a helmet for a few years in my teens/late teens. I cringe looking back now. I was so incredibly lucky that nothing ever happened to me...
    Saying "If you can't control your horse you have no place being on a horse" is pure and utter nonsense. Even the best, most experienced rider can come into a situation where a horse reacts unexpectedly or more panicky than expected. With more experience you are less likely to come off in such a situation but I do not believe there is a rider out there who has absolute control over their horse on every ride.
    I'd be wary of anyone claiming they are....
    As for "Rick" with the cult following - yeah, he disqualifiies himself due to his sexism. So not interested to listen to anything else if I have to wade through misogyny first.
     
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  3. Dona Worry

    Dona Worry Senior Member

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    Because he is a bully. Stop excusing and normalizing this behavior.

    Because he is a bully. Stop excusing and normalizing this behavior.

    Literally never seen this. Ever. And frankly, I doubt you ever have either. Or sure, maybe RG claims that is all he sees, but if you actually get out in the world and watch horse shows and see kids playing around in their yard, I bet you will realize the way RG sees the world has little in common with the truth.
    Whenever I see kids riding they have a helmet, and are closely monitored by either a parent or instructor. Heck, neighbor down the road checks the fit of his grandkid's helmets before every ride, and has a stash of bigger ones in his barn just in case, and while the two older girls (in their teens) often ride ahead or a little behind, I have never seen the six year old on anything except a pony on a lead line.
    Maybe it does happen, but I am pretty sure those parents that toss a helmet on a kid and assume it is safe are lacking in other areas as well.

    This is literally the definition of a troll. Saying something you don't believe just to rile people up IS A TROLL.
    First rule of the internet: don't feed the trolls.

    In short, you believe it is totally acceptable to be a verbally abusive bully and troll as long as you know a few common-sense odds and ends about horses and have a youtube account.

    Well, I don't. I don't support his BS by watching his videos and making him ad money. And I will speak out against that behavior wherever I find it, because I find it ugly and distasteful.

    Bottom line: helmets protect your brain. They aren't perfect, they don't make you invincible, but they DO offer your brain, the one body part you can't live without, some degree of protection and it is always a smart idea to wear one, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying, arrogant, or just plain ignorant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  4. Compadre

    Compadre Senior Member

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    You've already established in the other thread that you:

    A) are inexperienced with horses.
    B) don't understand their herd dynamics/communication/mindset all that well yet.

    So my question is, why in the world are you watching Rick Gore? He has built his youtube following on attracting people who don't know about horses because he talks like he's smarter and superior than everyone else. Just like most of his other viewers, at this point you are not going to be able to differentiate what is just good advice given in a rude manner, and what is just him spouting nonsense.

    The whole song and dance about bits has been done to death. It's not painful, and if it was then every yard pony in America wouldn't be happily enduring pain while carting around their kid. A horse isn't going to stand around in pain without first showing outward signs of it, and if that doesn't work, snapping and finding anyway possible to remove the pain.
     
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  5. Bakkir

    Bakkir Senior Member

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    Maybe it's my insane headache talking but what is this thread about?

    Anyone who has BTDT will tell you to wear a helmet. All children (under 18) must wear a helmet by law (Ontario). Kids can't start lessons in ON until 8 legally. (Although many start kids earlier at home)

    So sitting here with a 3 day migraine. After effects from a head injury from a fall. I say THANK GOD I had a good helmet on 6 yrs ago.

    I was on a trail ride and everything was great. Sunny day, no wind. Turned for home. Walking along, no problems.

    And I woke up in the ER. I didnt know my name or what had happened. I Still don't remember the fall or what spooked my horse.

    But I am alive today because I was wearing a helmet.

    Stop watching these "trainers" on the Internet. A true horse person works with whatever method they need to work with the animal in front of them. And a great horse person will do it all in the safest way possible.

    You need real life experience.
     
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  6. Tige Ress

    Tige Ress Full Member

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    He wears his ass has a hat. That explains his anti helmet stance.

    He is not saying anything new of better than many good trainers and clinicians out there. In fact you would do better watching CA's videos, and I am not a fan of CA either.
     
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  7. bellalou

    bellalou Senior Member

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    Oh FFS. If you think what you wrote makes any sense at all maybe a helmet isn't going to help you much.
     
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  8. apndi

    apndi Senior Member

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    Bits are generally only as harsh as the hands that hold the reins. Your average everyday snaffle won't hurt the horse much if something happens and you accidentally yank on it. However, if you're deliberately being harsh and yanking and pulling for the entire ride, that normally mild bit can become a torture device.

    Then there are some bits that shouldn't be used, ever...tom thumb bits come to mind. They are harsh no matter who uses them because of the way the bit is designed to function. There's the occasional exception where the horse seems to be okay with the bit, but they should generally be avoided. The people that use these bits are generally in the vast minority...yes there are some yahoos that think they can use them but there's idiots like that in every facet of this planet. In my area, most people ride in either a snaffle bit or a curb bit. My gelding has a French link full cheek snaffle used on him, and my mom's walking horse mare has some sort of curb bit, I forgot what it was called though.

    As for the helmet debate *cracks knuckles* here we go...

    I am very very pro helmet. You will never hear me make fun of someone for wearing a helmet. I really don't understand Rick Gore's stance on them. His stance seems to be that only stupid people wear helmets because they know they're doing stupid things so they wear the helmet for extra protection against their stupidity. How freaking stupid is that? I'm going to tell you a little story about something that happened to me about 10 years ago, I would like you to point out where I was being a stupid idiot, or if it was just a plain old accident, because yeah those happen when you surround yourself with 1000 lb animals.

    I was riding a Morgan mare about 10 years ago, doing a sitting trot with no stirrups during a riding lesson. I'm not sure what scared her, she always was a little sketchy. But something scared her. She jumped so the side and took off running as fast as she could go. I was about 10 at the time. I managed to quickly regain my stirrups but it was too late. I slid off her left side, however my right foot was still caught in the stirrup. So I was dangling off her left side, my head near her hooves, and her SHOD left front hoof kicked my head again, again, and again...I barely even knew it was happening because I was wearing a helmet. I finally managed to kick my right foot free and I finally fell to the ground. She continued to run, I stood up and felt like something was wrong with my head and took my helmet off...or what remained of it. It was completely shattered and fell apart as I held it in my hands. My head was totally unharmed.

    Now...imagine if I wasn't wearing my helmet. I wonder what my head would've looked like. I'm not sure I would be alive right now if I wasn't wearing it. And it had nothing to do with me doing something dumb or particularly risky. It was an accident, plain and simple. It wasn't the mare being mean. Actually I still ride her every so often, she's a nice ride when she's not flipping out about a shadow on the ground. But I'm a better rider now and I can sit her antics.

    I legitimately can't tell if you agree with Rick gore about helmets or not. If you do, considering you know next to nothing about the horse world, that's a pretty uneducated opinion. please gain some more hands-on experience before you start forming opinions against helmets. Learn from someone else that has a clue, before you start assuming that Rick gore "has a point." It's like me, having never played a game of football in my life, trying to tell an NFL football player that actually they don't need helmets if they're being careful enough. Those football players would think I was dumb as hell, because I would have no clue what I'm talking about.

    *steps off soapbox* sorry for the rant everyone
     
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  9. Mirage

    Mirage Senior Member

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    I think we just got a lecture and a talking to from someone that knows nothing about horses. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
    I can't be 100% sure though because I couldn't bring myself to read it all.
     
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  10. Huckleberry777

    Huckleberry777 Full Member

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    It boggles me why some people don't want to do something as simple as putting on a helmet to protect their head and brain in the event of an accident. On a related note yesterday at a barrel race I saw a girl racing wearing shin guards but no helmet. Apparently her legs are more important than her brain. :whistle:

    And the whole "You shouldn't be riding a horse if you can't control a horse" is complete stupidity. You can have the most dead broke, bombproof horse and something can still cause it to go off. So if that's the case apparently horses shouldn't be ridden at all, because any horse, no matter how experienced, broke, bombproof, etc, they are can still have their moments.

    As for the bits, yes there are some bits that are made just to torture, but they are few and far between, and no horse person with any sense would use them. Normal bits are not painful for a horse when used in the right hands.

    Rick Gore is a goof, the blatant sexism he uses should be enough to show that.
     

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