How to tell the difference between Tovero and max white Tobianos.

Discussion in 'Horse Colors / Genetics' started by Mmmaddie13, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. Mmmaddie13

    Mmmaddie13 Senior Member

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    It's always been a struggle for me, is there a way to tell the difference between a Tovero and a Tobiano with lots of white?

    ETA: I know that Tovero "displays characteristics of Tobiano and Overo, but the only times I've seen Tovero, they look like the bottom row of this photo, which illustrates the possible Tobiano patterns.
    [​IMG]

    Thanks!
     
  2. ACCphotography

    ACCphotography Senior Member

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    Well the first thing to realize is that "tovero", the way APHA and PtHA use it is a visual descriptor, not a genetic one.

    Visually a tovero can have any amount of body white as long as it has a certain minimum of face white. "Tovero" is really just based on the amount of head white. A horse could have just a patch of white over the withers with its stockings and if it has a bald face (especially if it has blue eyes) it will likely be registered tovero.

    Genetically toveros vary WIDELY. They can be all white or they can be extremely, extremely minimal.

    This horse has less body white than what you might expect for tovero, but it is registered as such and is clearly genetically tovero as well:
    [​IMG]

    and another:
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. ACCphotography

    ACCphotography Senior Member

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    A merely "max white tobiano" should have "ordinary" face markings. No more than a traditional blaze. Any more than that and it fits in the tovero category (visually, genetically it doesn't even have to have face white to be a tovero).
     
  4. Mmmaddie13

    Mmmaddie13 Senior Member

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    The way I had understood it was that a "Tovero" was the result of an Overo and Tobiano breeding, that happened to get a Tobiano gene and an Overo gene.

    The physical description of it kind of makes sense to me, but I mean how can I tell these apart without knowing their genotypes? Top two are "tobiano" bottom one is "tovero."

    This is where I'm not understanding it.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. ACCphotography

    ACCphotography Senior Member

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    See that's completely incorrect. That second one is VERY tovero. I have no idea why they wouldn't have registered as such unless they require one parent be registered overo (which is STUPID). The first one should even technically be a tovero. IMO if it has enough face white that it would have received regular registry papers had it been overo alone, it should be registered tovero. The second one is the very definition of a tovero.
     
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  6. the travlng rdr

    the travlng rdr Senior Member

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    Tilly, the second one, is definitely Tovero- I know her sire and dam- and will test a carrier for every pattern possible, I can promise you.
     
  7. barrelracer86

    barrelracer86 Senior Member

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    I hate the term torvero I don't think it should be used anymore. Torvero is a tobiano horse with some other Overo white pattern/s. I think if a horse has multiple known white patterns they should be listed instead of just lumping it as torvero or Overo because one of those patterns is known to be lethal (frame). It's confusing to people and like that first paint in the OP's second post the wide irregular shaped white that reaches across the eyes looks to be probably frame. Some people breed their tobiano horses to a frame Overo stud and think they are safe from OWLS. And I know OWLS is in multiple breeds not just pintos and paints, and it doesn't always show physically, but I think a lot less confusion and safer breeding choices could be made by people who don't study horse genetics in depth like some of us do. And that second horse in the OP's second post I mean it has all kinds of white patterns going on there. No wonder the OP's confused about what is what torvero and Overo are vague confusing terms in my book. I suggest keep reading about how each pattern affects the coat individually and start looking a pictures. Practice with less complicated paints and then move up to the ones with all kinds of patterns. You'll start getting a feel for how all the patterns interact with each other that way. That's how I've been learning them :D
     
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  8. Mmmaddie13

    Mmmaddie13 Senior Member

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    I apologize for the photos being incorrect. I took them straight from google when searched for tobiano and Tovero respectively.

    Barrelracer I'm glad you understand my confusion! Not to say the others don't because I don't doubt your information is correct, I am just confused because I had always thought that a horse that was patterned like the last three I posted, was Tovero, but recently, I forget how exactly, I've come across "tobianos" that look like what I always thought was Tocero.

    To me, regardless if pattern, "Tovero" still means the horse in question is a combination of Tobiano and Overo, genetically. I believe that is how it's defined in APHA but I will have to find that later when I am on my computer.
     
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  9. IIIBarsV

    IIIBarsV Senior Member+

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    Soooo traditional blazes...

    Where would say the Munchkin's blaze lies? His mom is an overo, dad's hz Tobiano, but has that really big blaze too...

    Jags Leo Rocket (sire)
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Munchkin (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jags+fleeting+rocket)
    [​IMG]

    Half-brother (on right, daddy in middle)
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. barrelracer86

    barrelracer86 Senior Member

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    Here's a decent example of a tobiano. No face white, white crosses the back, shield on chest, high leg white, but this horse may have frame too. The roundness to the spots that a tobiano should have are instead a little jagged.
    [​IMG]

    Though minimally expressed can just give the high leg white like here on foxy.
    [​IMG]

    This horse is a pretty typical frame jagged irregular horizontal markings
    [​IMG]

    sabino give the roaniness to the spots or the body
    [​IMG]

    Though maximum expressed can give you a almost completely white horse like Pepper
    [​IMG]

    Splash gives the smooth dipped in white paint look
    [​IMG]

    This horse has several white patterns a "torvero". Jagged irregular markings: Frame, white crosses back and shield: tobiano, messy "roany" edges to the spots: sabino
    [​IMG]
     
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