Dressage, outside rein for a 10 meter circle/volte

Discussion in 'Horse Training' started by Izzy88, Oct 29, 2018.

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  1. Izzy88

    Izzy88 Registered

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    So for years I was taught that for a 10 meter circle volte, your outside rein should be supporting as usually. While there was some flexion with the inside rein, the bend should still be coming from the inside leg and outside rein.

    Fast forward to now, I'm being told in lessons with a different instructor, that in a 10 meter circle you always give the outside rein a bit forward. That you can't do a circle that small without some give in the outside rein. But the instructor says you can still have a supportive outside rein even if it's a bit more forward.

    Thoughts? Personally I've felt more success without giving my outside rein forward but perhaps I'm not doing it as she wants.
     
  2. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Yes, with some horses you have to actually think about bringing your outside hand a little forward.

    It is not a big huge motion, but more subtle.

    And yes, some trainers emphasize that more than others, or emphasize it more on certain horses. You can go to one trainer, and be told to do it a little more, and then go to someone else, and be told to do it a little less.

    Some trainers over-exaggerate this of course, and if they do, it may be a part of them really not being experienced in dressage, and using methods and rein aids, and producing a rein contact that really belongs in some other riding sport. An exaggeratedly forward hand and an exaggerated release of the outside rein is called for at times and may benefit as a temporary fix for a problem, but should not become a religion.

    99% of the time if you have picked a decent trainer, you do what they tell you, and it will improve your riding. You don't have to worry.


    Suggestion, keep this in mind: For most trainers, in most situations, they are responding to what's going on in the moment. Students often over-interpret what the trainer says. They're not always telling you a 'commandment carved in stone' as one trainer said to me.

    If your horse does not appear to be positioning his neck well in the circle or turn, yes, they may say, bring forward a little, outside hand. Don't abandon it, don't throw away the contact, just enough to let your horse flow into the bend.

    It doesn't mean that you would always do it all the time to the same degree, every horse, every stage of training.

    The bottom line is that if someone is telling you something that sounds different, in most cases the best thing to do is just go for it. Try it. See if it works. See what happens.
     
  3. Rhythm 'n Blues

    Rhythm 'n Blues Senior Member

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    10m circles require the neck to come around more than a 20m circle, so yes the outside rein has to allow that bend in the neck to occur. So yup, it cant stay in the same position as it does for a straight line or a 20m circle.

    Support is not dictated by the location of your hand in relation to say your body or saddle or the horses withers. If the horse is truly connected that connection should stay if/when you move your hand. Of course that’s all within reason, as clearly if you decide to wave to your friend while holding the rein you’re not likely going to have the horse still connected.....you will have effectively shaken him off while waving lol
     
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  4. QRTXhorseman

    QRTXhorseman Senior Member

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    Teaching someone how to ride can be much like teaching someone how to drive.

    You tell the driver to turn the steering wheel to the right. They do. But they turn it too far. Then, you seem to contradict yourself by saying, “Turn the wheel to the left.”

    As we practice driving, we should learn to use subtlety in our movements. The same is true when riding horses.

    Subtlety leads to a release of tension – both in the rider and in the horse -- so finer movements can be achieved. That is when the dance becomes less mechanical.
     
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  5. manesntails

    manesntails Senior Member

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    Just picture where the horse has to go with his face in order to complete that circle and you automatically know how your hand has to be in order to allow his head to take that position.

    You can't block the head from turning left, so you have to give enough rein to allow the head to position itself comfortably.

    You're not really “supporting“ anything, you're just correctly positioning your hand to allow the horse to execute the task.
     
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  6. palogal

    palogal Senior Member

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    Yes, without some give in the outside rein, you're constricting the head/neck making the 10 meter circle harder than it already is.
     
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  7. allhorsenobrain

    allhorsenobrain Full Member

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    The outside rein is supporting in that its giving the horse a sort of boundary line for where you want the neck to be along with the amount of flexion your inside rein is asking for while your inside and outside legs are controlling the body.
    Your inside rein will shorten to signal the amount of flexion you want while the outside rein will be lengthened to all the horse enough room for it to have sufficient bend in it as he needs to stretch the muscles on that side to do that
    Its all about getting the balance right, you need just the right amount of contact to allow for the bend in the neck without losing your 'boundary line.
     
  8. manesntails

    manesntails Senior Member

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    No, actually, if you position YOUR BODY the way you want the horse to go (assume the position in your body that allows the horse to go the way you want them to), your hands and legs AUTOMATICALLY go where they need to be so that the horse can perform the movement.

    If your body is NOT aligned properly, you can fiddle with your legs and hands, and the horses mouth til kingdom come and the horse will not perform the movement smoothly or properly because YOUR BODY is telling them one thing, while your hands and legs are saying another.

    First, your body has to be correct, then your extremities follow. There is no such thing as “supporting rein“. You are either in the correct position or you are not. If your instructor TELLS you to “support“ the horse with outside rein, you are not in the correct position, in your body. Body position FIRST, then when that is correct, the rest of you follows. All else is fiddling to overcompensate for rider position error.

    Look where you want to go.
     
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  9. allhorsenobrain

    allhorsenobrain Full Member

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    Not quite that simple if you ride dressage manesntails.
    Yes our body/seat position has a big influence on the way a horse goes but it isn't enough on its own to get the precision and finesse in dressage.
    There wouldn't be any fiddling with the hands - the outside rein is an indirect rein that's against the horses neck controlling the shoulder/neck not the head. The direct rein on the inside is just going to be the rider closing their fingers on the rein for required flexion. The lengthening and shortening of the reins is only to maintain a consistent contact and allow for the neck to have room to bend.
    You would have already used your half halt on your outside rein to signal the cue for turn coming up and to gather and balance the horse but that wouldn't amount to fiddling and neither would the leg cues which have to be clear and exact so the horse doesn't get confused.
     
  10. manesntails

    manesntails Senior Member

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    Actually, it IS that simple no matter WHAT discipline you ride: YOUR body doing as it is supposed to do, causes your hands ands legs to be positioned PRECISELY where they need to be for the horse to correctly execute the movement asked for.

    Ask poorly, you get poor results.

    No supporting, no fuss, no muss.
    You can talk it into circles, label it as this doing that, but all your separate parts doing this or that, after the fact, is nothing more than fighting with the horse to do what you never asked him to do correctly with your body in the first place.

    It's simply a fact. The POINT is: if your body is correct, the rest of you follows correctly and there is no need for a trainer to holler to you to use “inside leg “.....“0utside rein~!!“.

    If your body is not correct, then you have dropping of shoulders, incorrect bend, etc., etc., etc. on and on. Why? Because you gave the horse cues that were at cross purpose to what your body said.

    Period, end of story.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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