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Featured Biomechanics...engage the core...lift the back

Discussion in 'Horse Health' started by BluemoonOKy, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Actually the video very specifically said that their methods will prevent kissing spine. That was what 95% of the video was about. We MUST get that horse's head down and keep it down or else he will be horribly damaged. That was the call to the faithful.
     
  2. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    I agree with these comments as well.

    If we heed the wise words of Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park", just because someone is doing something, doesn't mean they should.

    And as Sigmund Freud is supposed to have said, "I love my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while". Not often enough, evidently. He died from mouth cancer.
     
  3. savethewhaley

    savethewhaley Senior Member

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    I'm going to disagree with a lot of you here and say that I rather like Will- but, with most trainers, everything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt. There are constantly arguments on here about CA and Parelli and all that, and again, you can pick out some good stuff out of there, but there is certainly bad stuff in there too.
    I have respect for Will for creating videos that are free for the viewer and a lot of them have the same horses in them, so you can see their improvement. Will has gotten a lot of horses who came from people who rode them incorrectly, and has at least turned them into happy horses who have a job and look better than they did when they showed up.
    I would be interested in hearing some stories from dressage trainers on here. Sometimes I'm skeptical of where the knowledge on this forum comes from- everyone has something to give, but sometimes I just look at something and have to shake my head- again, part of that is because we all come from different parts with ways of doing things.
    I teach my horses to stretch, on the ground, on the longe, and under saddle. They like it. I don't use gadgets and I don't make them go around like that forever. However, when I shorten my reins and bring them up in the front for a few minutes (for a horse in training), and then let them have a break, the head immediately comes down and they want to stretch. The fact is that horses in training cannot maintain collection and elevate the fore for long periods of time. It is just as detrimental for a horse to be expected to stay elevated over a long period of time than it is for us to ride them in the stretch constantly. Horses can lift their back with their head down or up, and I expect them to be engaged through the back no matter where I put their head.
    The radiographs in the video are correct. There should be no argument about that.
     
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  4. Garfield70

    Garfield70 Senior Member

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    For me the criterium for a good trainer is that he is propagating a system that makes sense as a whole.

    I can have this or that little niggle about details, but the general foundation of what the person teaches has to make sense as a body of theory and it has to produce good practical results.

    That's not the case with those folks because they are extremists and base their system on half-truths (the kissing spine claims) that they then interpret very one sided (EXTREME long and low only as the salvation).

    The fact here is that good, violence free, biomechanically sound traditional dressage, western riding, gaited training etc does not cause kissing spines so even if extreme long and low was a cure for kissing spines, that would be totally irrelevant for most horses.
     
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  5. savethewhaley

    savethewhaley Senior Member

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    That's pretty big criteria for a trainer- they're all going to be selling you something.
    I believe that the original purpose of this thread was to provide a video with tangible evidence on how engaging the horse's back is beneficial to them- I thought the video was clear and did a good job. Nothing I didn't know before, but a very good teaching tool.
     
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  6. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    The truth of it is that horses develop leg and back issues for all sorts of reasons. Use over the years. Ageing. Accidents. Poor conformation. And yes, in a few cases, incorrect training.

    And, everyone has something to sell. Not really. Not when 'selling' becomes pure BS and propaganda. They don't all do it. From what I have seen the best trainers are actually pretty modest and totally honest about what they can and can't do.

    "Oh your horse has xyz problem? Oh....well I can't promise anything, but I'll do my best. We've had a few lame horses come through here. I was able to help some of them through very simple means - working with a vet or farrier, better footing...things like that. It's not always possible to fix xyz, but I do have a vet and farrier I've worked with and trust. Let's get the farrier and the vet involved and see what we can come up with if we put our heads together".

    That's a lot different from what these fellows claim. The claims these people make(I mean other than Hubertus Schmidt),. That's propaganda and BS. Pure and simple.

    Hubertus Schmidt would probably tell you himself that he uses very, very basic, simple methods, and a lot of other people could help you just as well. He might honestly say a few months of training with him will increase your horse's resale value as he's a popular trainer these days.

    But he's also a man who sold most of his horses when his wife got breast cancer, so he could support her more and spend time with her. He's not anywhere near in the same ballpark with most of your sheisters hanging out a shingle.

    There are a couple warning signs that a trainer is a little wee bit too full of himself and views himself as a flesh and blood saint in riding pants, and thinks you should too, and that you should demonstrate your devotion regularly by crossing his palm with silver:

    1. Only he is the real deal. No one else. Just him. He doesn't take lessons because no one else is anywhere near good enough to have anything to teach him, because, he's the real deal, no one else is.
    2. He's got a New Gospel that no one else has. NO ONE.
    3. The only way to salvation is to join his team. They're all happy campers, winning like crazy all the time(or if you hate competing, they have a 'better relationship' with their horse and their horses are HAPPIER, HEALTHIER, LIVE TO BE 40, and so on.
    4. Everyone else will ruin your horse. Horribly.

    Sometimes when a trainer talks bad about a specific individual, it's true. And sometimes it's not. Sometimes a trainer's claim of past wins are true. And sometimes not.
     
  7. savethewhaley

    savethewhaley Senior Member

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    I don't see Will doing any of this- in all the videos of his I've watched, the comments he's made about his riders and other trainers have been positive.
    Using stretching for development and training isn't new, and Will hasn't invented it, but I don't see him claim that he has.
    The fact that trainers want 'everyone to join their team' is them wanting to sell you something- that's their business. It's no different from a TV advertisement for the latest smart phone.
     
  8. savethewhaley

    savethewhaley Senior Member

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    One post deleted because it posted twice.
     
  9. D_BaldStockings

    D_BaldStockings Senior Member

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    I truly don't understand why there is a problem with one person recommending Trainer A because they have what appears to be a good idea; and a second person recommending Trainer B because the second person feels they have a better grasp of what to do and how and why.

    Neither the first person nor the second person is promoting themselves as the answer to the world's problems...

    If someone comes on with the latest money making scheme, before I recommend to others, I think it smart to go look at Charlie Munger and see if the principles and methods are sound by his standards.

    Nothing wrong with recommending a look at Charlie to those enamored by the new scheme. And nothing wrong with pointing out where there may be risk or unexpected drawbacks or even misinterpretations of the latest, greatest scheme.

    And nowhere is it necessary to BE Charlie Munger, myself; in order to understand him and recommend him.
     
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  10. D_BaldStockings

    D_BaldStockings Senior Member

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    I think the main 'problem' I have with the video is the 'anything but long and low is damaging to the horse', anything that needs a hollow back 'for any time at all' is damaging to a horse: cruel you.

    I think a horse should be gymnasticized to the point ANY dynamic shift of position that produces a specific presentation of training is something the horse can do proficiently and without pain. From a jump to a rollback to a gallop, to a bouncy canter, to riding hollow, to lying down and getting up if so desired.

    No single 'frame' or 'position' is ideal because the horse and rider are objects in motion ALL THE TIME.

    Not that anyone agrees with that.
     
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