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Featured Biomechanics...engage the core...lift the back

Discussion in 'Horse Health' started by BluemoonOKy, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Actually, I don't think that's the point at all. I think the point is that videos like this are spreading misinformation in general about back problems('riding the horse with his head in the dirt prevents kissing spines', 'humpy backs are due to not riding the horse with its head low enough' both of which are patently false and very misleading,) and misinformation specifically about dressage.

    The fact is that a great many horses have 'kissing spines' on autopsy, without ever having had any symptoms of pain or riding problems or anyone having done anything 'wrong'.

    It's not AT ALL clear that it is caused by not having the horse's head low enough, which is exactly what they (and similar folks in the same camp) say. In fact it is thought by many that it can be a part of the ageing, process or about an acute injury such as getting cast or falling on the back.

    That humped loin/spine that they insist is again, due to not having the horse's head low enough, is actually an extremely common sign - of lameness. It's actually extremely important that people NOT just try to get their horse's lead lower when they see this sort of appearance developing on the horse's back.

    This is important. It's not a 'debate', it's misinformation, and it's a welfare issue as they're insisting people overlook signs of lameness.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  2. BluemoonOKy

    BluemoonOKy Senior Member

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    I am wondering how many of you have ever seen a horse graze or sniff for a good place to roll. And, JFC, this is not about "d'ressaaaaaaaaaggggggggggeeeeeeee". Although I know many of you think everything is about that.
    Lifting the back as a result of the core being activated is as much, or more, of a feeling for the rider as it is visual for a person looking in on it happening. No one is saying to peanut push. If a head is so low, wait for it....that the shoulders can't lift, welp...that is back to hollow back and not what we are looking for.
    The video wasn't targeted for treating kissing spines. Again, did some of you even watch it? It's about preventing wear and tear on the joints by not riding the back hollow. No one said to ride horse into the dirt on the forehand and the nonsense being extrapolated...This is very simple, not rocket science. And, yes, riding a horse hollow will create problems and those possibilities include hunters bump and kissing spines due to the space between the vertebrae. This is basic, kindergarten physics.
    Sometimes, posting on here can be talking to a big, thick, dense wall.
    And, arm chair riders Unite! I knew no one would be willing to post pics or videos of their own perfect riding and developed horses. Go figure on that one.
     
  3. LoveTrail

    LoveTrail Senior Member

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    I'll bite. I watched this video maybe a year ago to help me improve Foxy's topline. It did, but I also made one mistake that made it still hard to do lead changes, my other goal. I let him pull on the bit which put him more on the forehand and less collected especially for the lope. I had him in training for a couple of months and video taped the trainer showing him in Level 1/Green Western Riding last September, at that point only in training a couple weeks. Unfortunately I did not look at the videos again until recently and realized what I had done by letting him pull thinking it was just good stretches. He was doing it to her and she kept on pulling him back to collect. He's in a snaffle for this class. I also had made the issue of pushing him too forward thinking the faster we went the better his lead changes, not, so she was going a bit towards too slow to try and relax him.

    [video]

    Now with me realizing what I had been doing we are already starting to get our lead changes. Used to be only got one right for maybe every ten changes, now it is more like 50% in just this last month.

    Us today doing one of our lead changes, which this way we used to never get. Our one in ten was always the other way.

    [video]
     
  4. Garfield70

    Garfield70 Senior Member

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    With the video I was referring to the height of the head carriage that is natural and comfotable for the horse, not the nose poking out. Of course under saddle you would want the neck more rounded, the nose line approaching the vertical (but again nothing excessive like btv)
     
  5. Garfield70

    Garfield70 Senior Member

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    LOL. I have never seen a horse grazing or looking for a rolling spot at the canter. They graze while standing or walking very slowly. That's biodymechanically very different from assuming the position at a movement with momentum, for a long time.


    They sniff for a rollilng spot at the walk or trot, for a few seconds. They also roll up their necks to scratch their chests with their teeth or chase off some insect. So Rollkur riding is perfectly okay and healthy because horses will assume the position voluntarily from time to time or that it's good to do so?

    The fact that horses have very mobile necks and will assume extreme positions for a short period of time doesn't mean we whould ask them to do so for longer periods of time or that it's good to do so.

    Nose in the dirt riding is just as unnatural as rollkur riding.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
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  6. Garfield70

    Garfield70 Senior Member

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    Most horses don't have kissing spine. Why would I do kissing spine rehab therapy with a perfectly healthy horse? I don't take an antibiotic when I don't have a bacterial infection.

    For kissing spines rehab I would suggest this guy, have never seen him live but what he explains of curing orthopedic problems with good training sounds much more balanced and reasonable than stupid "extreme stretch only " therapy.

    Science Of Motion
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  7. Garfield70

    Garfield70 Senior Member

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    What I also don't like about the video, none of the riders in it rides well, nobody even has a good, functional seat.

    Those people are one trick ponies. They developted method to manipulate horses to do an extreme long and low position and that's the end of their riding and training skill.

    Probably they went that way, marketing an extreme trick as the best thing since sliced bread because they want to make money and just didn't cut it in the real dressage world.


    By the way, a horse with the nose that low can not see properly where it's going. So trail riding or working horsemanship (cow work etc) like that is totally out of the question.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  8. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    For someone who nobly professes to look down her nose at the process of chucking insults at people, you sure throw out a lot of them, LOL.

    The fact is that many horses are ridden 'hollow' all their lives and never have any back problems. Many horses are, in fact, built hollow and stay that way all their lives, and never show any signs of kissing spine disease or hunter's bump or back pain, though, if YOU watched the video, you'd note that the speaker in the video SPECIFICALLY stated that hunter's bump was a different kettle of fish. Sort of.
     
  9. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    I pretty much agree with this - except the vision thing. I agree that this extreme position is a trick. For many of these 'personalities' that's all they know. They've taken one dressage exercise and exaggerated it out of all compass, and called that both 'dressage' and 'necessary therapy'. This is marketing and it is about flocking to certain specific people and not others.

    With his nose at ground level to graze, a horse can see an incredibly wide slice of the world around him. Go back to some of the Equus articles about equine vision if you doubt this.

    His skull and eye placement are designed for that - in fact he's exquisitely and specifically designed to see the world in an incredibly wide field of vision with his head down there to eat. If he was not, he would not have survived as a grazing animal for millions of years. That is part of the 'design engineering' of the horse that is non-optional.

    Having him put his head down while reins, longe line or side reins or behavioral conditioning are more or less keeping his head pointed in only one direction, rather than doing all the constantly peeking around this way and that which he does when grazing, only restricts that field of vision a small amount. Rollkur, in which his nose approaches his chest, restricts his vision somewhat more because his chest/body is now in the way of him seeing part of that picture.
     
  10. slc

    slc Senior Member

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    Ah, Jean Luc. I met him I think around 25 or 30 years ago. A friend of mine met him earlier than that.

    Any time any horse trainer claims to replace a veterinarian and be a miracle healer, be careful.

    my friend used to tell this story about him. She used to go to Florida every winter.

    One day while in Florida, she noticed a guy riding around on a horse that was unclipped. The animal was dripping with sweat, she said. She thought this very curious as virtually every one would clip their horses on arrival or even before leaving for Florida, to prevent this sort of problem, which could lead to serious health issues since the climate down there was so radically different and it could be hot and humid even in winter.

    So she was riding along, and when the guy was nearer, she said, 'hi, I'm so and so, what's your name?'

    The man declared, 'I'm FRENCH!' and rode away.

    She thought this was utterly hysterical. She was not a particularly demonstrative person but this encounter had her rolling around laughing her head off.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017

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